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LaidBackRider Profile
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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


And I hate to mention it, but Mando's numbers were even MORE impressive than Franco's.
1/30/2012, 12:36 pm Link to this post Email LaidBackRider   PM LaidBackRider Blog
 
Catcherlady Profile
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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


Oh I know they were. Never said he couldn't pitch, I just never felt he had what it takes to be a closer.

On the other hand, John proved he could get the job done no matter how much people want to claim otherwise!

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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


I am so on the fence on this one, but, he did wear his dad's orange sanitation shirt every day and he actually wants to be a part of this shitty organization so !@#$ it, put him in, nobody is watching anyway
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vtmet Profile
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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


the thing is, the modern day closer is one of the most over-rated positions for any kind of HOF consideration...

90+% of closers could be replaced by a guy with a decent fastball & a decent changeup with relatively good control, and there wouldn't be a significant dropoff from one closer to his replacement...in fact, most "setup" guys are more effective than the "closer"...

there might be an occasional exception, like a Mariano Rivera or a Dan Quisenberry or a Bruce Sutter; but for the most part, a team can lose a closer and have a decent setup guy replace him and still get 25+ saves...Franco was no exception, and neither was Jesse Orosco, who owed a lot of his success to Roger McDowell...

and even in some of the supposed elite closers, you can even see a history of a guy "passing the torch" with similar results:

Rivera had 43 saves in his first year as Yankees closer, but the year before John Wetteland had 43 saves, a 2.83 ERA and a 1.17 WHIP (24 walks in 62 games);

Trevor Hoffman had the most career saves at one time (601)...Padres decide to let him walk, and a pitcher that wasn't even good enough to be on the Mets 25 man roster steps in with 42 saves, 47 saves and 43 saves in the 3 seasons of replacing Hoffman;

Franco gets injured, Benitez replaces him saving 22 games to finish the season (Franco had 19, so 22 in that short span is pretty good statistically), and then has 41 and 43 saves the next 2 full seasons;

Same can be said with Billy Wagner and Brad Lidge; when either got injured or left the Astros/Phils thru FA, the replacement still hammered out the saves...

There was nothing special of Franco, just a lot of hype and a lot of "he's a fellow New Yorker" nonsense...

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2/3/2012, 11:30 am Link to this post Email vtmet   PM vtmet Blog
 
LaidBackRider Profile
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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


The closer who got no respect and should be in the real HOF is Lee Smith. Look at his gaudy numbers:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/smithle02.shtml

A lifetime 3.03 ERA, more than a strikeout per inning pitched and 478 saves!

His numbers are better than Bruce Sutter's who had just 300 saves.

Franco, in fact, had a superior ERA and 424 saves.

While you're at it, look at Mariano's numbers...totally off the charts, a first-ballot Hall of Famer, if ever there was one.

Last edited by LaidBackRider, 2/3/2012, 11:43 am
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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


ERA for a reliever is a very deceptive stat...Franco, for one, would come in with guys on base & would quite often allow the inherited runner to score...his control issues, caused the guy in front of him to have a higher ERA, but it didn't affect Franco's ERA because it wasn't his baserunner...IMO, Franco had crappy control, no "out pitch" and had to rely on his infield defense to bail him out of a lot of self-created jams; he was basically a "lucky" version of Doug Sisk that would finally throw strikes once his runners reached 3rd base...

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2/3/2012, 11:55 am Link to this post Email vtmet   PM vtmet Blog
 
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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


Agreed on Lee Smith.

As for closers in general, I do believe that the role is overhyped, but I don't believe that just any setup man can step up into it either.

Yeah, Benitez had great numbers but as we all know, when the heat got turned up or the second he made a mistake, he fell apart.

What makes a really great closer, in my book, is the ability to step up and face the fire...not melt the hotter it gets, but bear down and throw your best stuff at them and bascially dare the batters to hit it. That's what makes Mariano stand out...it's what made Hoffman stand out too.

John Franco did not have dominant stuff and it's true he'd let a lot of inherited runners score but he also, more often than not, eventually got the job done. Sure he gave me heartburn...most closers do...but it wasn't anywhere near the level of agita that Baby Huey caused. It's not all about having a dominating fastball...it's about having the balls to go with it.

Last edited by Catcherlady, 2/3/2012, 1:17 pm


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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


also probably helps when you have a catcher that doesn't call for the same 98 mph fastball 3 pitches in a row to the same batter...

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2/3/2012, 1:21 pm Link to this post Email vtmet   PM vtmet Blog
 
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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


that wasn't meant as a diss of whatever catcher was behind the plate when Benitez would make a mistake (it's actually pretty common for a closer to make 1 too many fastballs, or a starter to throw too many curveballs or changeups to the same batter)...

but that is where a guy like a Jerry Grote or a Gary Carter is NOT given enough credit...their thought process of thinking ahead of the hitters, quite often can make the difference between a pitcher getting out of a jam, versus giving up a big hit at the wrong time...

there are a lot of pitchers that have "good stuff" but no plan of how to use their stuff effectively for an entire at bat...We think of the marshmallows like Sisk, Oliver Perez and Mike Pelfrey; but how many of those types of guys have been spared by having the right catcher doing the thinking for them?

Last edited by vtmet, 2/3/2012, 1:29 pm


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Re: Franco goes to Mets Hall of Fame


That Pelfrey excuse sailed a long long time ago.
2/3/2012, 5:44 pm Link to this post Email RenoHitman   PM RenoHitman Blog
 


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